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Hi all... I'm a pro-lifer who is addicted to making icons. Here are… - Livejournal's Center for Abortion Related Icons
May 5th, 2004
09:25 pm
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From:(Anonymous)
Date:August 23rd, 2006 08:06 pm (UTC)

Re: Just my twp cents

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As a matter of fact, the government does have a program where heroin addicts can get clean needles from free clinics. All they have to do is come and ask for them.

I had an abortion a few months ago and I know that I did the right thing. I had taken drugs and pills that caused birth defects in the fetus. I had to ask myself if I was ready to care for a severely handicapped child, and whether it was a good life for that child to live. I am glad that the option of abortion was available to me. I think about my child everyday and I pray for that child, but if faced with situation again, I would do it again.


Also, your "facts" about abortion are wrong. You should check things out before you start giving out information. Abortions do not affect furure conception. It does not cause death. As a matter of fact, more women die from complications of giving birth than from complications from abortion. And as for mental and emotional strain, sure, it happens. But it's also an incredible sense of relief when you know that you have a choice. There are just situations that pregnant women can be in that are not ideal for children. Check your facts and stop misinforming people.
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From:pineapple1012
Date:August 23rd, 2006 09:13 pm (UTC)

Re: Just my twp cents

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First of all, I'm sorry for your situation. It's terrible that you had to make that choice, and I'm sorry that you were taking drugs (by necessity or by choice) that harmed your baby. You illustrate an example which is very difficult to argue away. What happens if there is a severley handicapped child that the mother can't afford to care for? It's difficult to say. Maybe there could have been other solutions, maybe you really felt there was no other choice. I don't know you, so I can't really judge that. And I am in no way passing judgement on you, but I feel that, at the end of the day, one can never say that your abortion or ANY abortion, was an intrinsically "good" thing.

However, I am concerned that too many young women are as relieved as you are that abortion is an option. Abortion is far too easily accessable, and many women use it as a back up to birth control. If abortion is to stay legal, it should, at the very least, be more difficult to obtain. There is simply NO excuse to get rid of a healthy child because it's inconvienient. Give it up for adoption. There are many people dying to have a child who can't have one of their own.

Finally, my facts are NOT, in point of fact, "wrong." You can fairly say that some of them are contested and I in no way meant to indicate that every single legal "safe" abortion leads to death. But, I have done a fair amount of research on this, and these things do happen often enough. The difficulty is that for every study I can produce showing that abortion is harmful for women or that an unborn child is biologically alive, you can probably produce one that says otherwise. The issue has become far too politicized for it ever to be resolved intellegently, which is sad. Instead of religious and political ramblings, it should be discussed from a strictly scientific and legal point of view. But I digress.

When you say "situations that aren't ideal for children" do you mean living conditions? lifestyle choices?? I understand if a woman is very poor she may not want to raise her child, but often she will be able to find a group home or a center that will take care of her until she has the child and put the baby up for adoption for her. Surely adoption by a loving family is ideal for a child? If you mean a situation where a woman is living a party lifestyle and a child would inconvinience that, I think it's very sad that a life would be ended so she can continue doing her own thing. Again, I think no woman should have to be a mother if she doesn't want to be, but once you're pregnant, you're already a mother. Give the baby up for adoption. Before you have sex, make sure the guy is wearing a condom or you have taken a pill or are wearing a diaphragm or go get your tubes tied if you are old enough and can afford it and are certain you never want children.

I guess I just become frustrated by people who insist that abortion is a good thing in and of itself. Even if you feel, ideologically, that it can't be made illegal, you can't really argue its a boon. It's annoying that women think if they can't have abortions they have to have babies. I'm a feminist, and I don't want kids and I have sex, but I think I have enough options to prevent pregnancy that I will never have to have an abortion.
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From:pineapple1012
Date:August 23rd, 2006 09:22 pm (UTC)

Re: Just my twp cents

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Oh, and if you would like some information with sources to back it up, I can sent you the article I wrote a few months ago about the subject.
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From:nothingmuch
Date:January 30th, 2007 01:34 pm (UTC)

Just my two cents

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Abortion is far too easily accessable, and many women use it as a back up to birth control. If abortion is to stay legal, it should, at the very least, be more difficult to obtain.

Most states have waiting periods, informed consent, mandatory ultrasounds, parental involvement for minors, etc. Not to mention the fact that it's several hundred dollars for a first trimester abortion, and medicaid usually doesn't cover it. It's ALREADY extremely difficult to get an abortion.

There is simply NO excuse to get rid of a healthy child because it's inconvienient. Give it up for adoption. There are many people dying to have a child who can't have one of their own.

I don't care.

There are over a hundred thousand children in foster care waiting to be adopted RIGHT NOW. People who "wait" do so only because they want a perfect white infant, not a two or three year old child with a history of neglect.

They don't care about the poor children waiting for families in the foster care system, so why should pregnant women give a damn about them? Why should I suffer through an unwanted pregnancy and put MY health at risk, just so they can have MY perfect white baby? They can take the children that are already available.

I would NEVER give a baby up for adoption. NEVER. Any baby that comes out of my body is MY FAMILY, and I don't give away family. NO ONE could ever love my baby more than ME. NO ONE could ever protect my baby better than ME.

If I was pregnant and I couldn't keep my baby, I would have an abortion -- even an illegal abortion -- before I would EVER think of giving my baby away.

An abortion just kills a fetus so it won't become a baby. An aborted fetus never has to suffer. It's much kinder than having a baby and ripping it away from its mother.

The issue has become far too politicized for it ever to be resolved intellegently, which is sad. Instead of religious and political ramblings, it should be discussed from a strictly scientific and legal point of view.

Go ahead and discuss it from whatever point of view you want, but your discussions will never change the opinions of individual women, who make their own decisions about their own pregnancies regardless of the law.

I don't care how many times you say that a fetus is a baby. I have been through pregnancy and I have been through birth, and a fetus is not a baby until it's born. Nothing you say or show me will ever convince me otherwise (I've heard and seen it all), and no law will ever change my mind. I will always believe that abortion is better than adoption.

You can either respect women's sincerely-held beliefs about their own bodies and their own pregnancies, or you can do the "pro-life" thing and try to kill women like me by making it illegal for doctors to help us abort. But you'll never eliminate all abortion. If I can't go to a doctor, I'll do it myself. I'd rather die than give away my flesh and blood child to some stranger.
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From:nothingmuch
Date:January 30th, 2007 01:49 pm (UTC)

another cent

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P.S. You might not know this, as the pro-life movement likes to make it sound like most women who abort are ignorant teenagers who've never been pregnant before, but actually, more than 60% of women who abort have already had at least one baby. So you see, there are LOTS of women like me, who have been through pregnancy already and sincerely feel, from the depths of our souls, that abortion is the best option for an unwanted pregnancy. We are not just dumb kids, and we are not going away any time soon.
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From:pineapple1012
Date:January 30th, 2007 08:04 pm (UTC)

Re: another cent

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I'm very well aware.
If everyone who had an abortion was just a "dumb kid", a teenager terrified of an unplanned pregnancy, that would be much less sad than the idea that a woman who's well educated and theoretically intellegent would honestly want to destroy a person instead of letting someone else raise it, in order to save them convienience.
I'm not an idiot just because I do not agree with you. For one, I certainly don't "try to kill women like you" who feel they have the right to control their own bodies. Murder is murder is murder, so, that's just stupid. Also, it solves nothing.
I completley agree that women have the right to control their own bodies. I think women should be able to have sex without fear of becoming pregnant. This is why there is the miracle of birth control, condoms, diaphragms. These are very good things. They give women a lot of control over their own lives. Yes, they require the woman to put a tiny bit of forthought into the sex act (though it takes all of three seconds to slip on a condom) but that's a tiny price to pay for sex without pregnancy.
However. Abortion is, scientifically, not really about the woman's own body. It's about removing a fetus. If you argue that a fetus is a seperate human being (which I realize you are completley closed off to, but it's a very real, scientific possibility. I can present just as much evidence that a fetus IS a human as you can that they aren't.) then it's not at ALL an issue of the woman's own body, but an issue of the child's rights.
Wanna argue it legally? Connor's law, which charges you with murder twice if you kill a pregnant woman and her child. If its murder to kill a fetus in that way, why isn't it murder to have an abortion? Older civilizations handled this by calling the destruction of a fetus without a woman's consent the damage of property or assault or something. Not so in the U.S.
Wanna arge it ideologically? We have three main rights: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. In that order. The woman's right to the pursuit of happiness does not eclipse the fetus' right to life.
Also, I don't claim that the adoption/foster child system is perfect. It's far from. In fact, in a lot of ways, it's awful. But I don't really see that its worse than not giving a baby a chance to live.
It baffles me you feel so strongly about letting someone else raise your child, but not about pulling them out of your womb before they have a chance to live.
Last, I am well aware that this is not a black and white issue. There are many difficult situations, such as when a woman's life is in danger, that abortion seems like the only option. I'm not so naive as to think this is an easy thing to deal with. However, I don't think that blanket access to abortion solves things. At. All.
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From:bjsurvivor
Date:February 2nd, 2007 05:54 am (UTC)

Re: another cent

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I completley agree that women have the right to control their own bodies. I think women should be able to have sex without fear of becoming pregnant. This is why there is the miracle of birth control, condoms, diaphragms. These are very good things. They give women a lot of control over their own lives. Yes, they require the woman to put a tiny bit of forthought into the sex act (though it takes all of three seconds to slip on a condom) but that's a tiny price to pay for sex without pregnancy.

No contraceptive, not even sterilization (save for hysterectomy) is 100% efficacious at preventing pregnancy. No one contraceptive works for every woman's body. Of course, there isn't a single mainstream anti-abortion organization that proposes contraception and comprehensive sexuality education as a solution to the issue of abortion; in fact, every single last one of them either opposes or completely ignores contraception and comprehensive sexuality education - you know, those things that have proven to work in Europe and other Western nations to actually reduce unwanted pregnancy and, subsequently, the incidence of abortion - as a solution to reduce the incidence of abortion.

However. Abortion is, scientifically, not really about the woman's own body. It's about removing a fetus.

Scientifically, abortion is absolutely about a woman's own body. Only women can get pregnant, therefore, only women can experience abortions. Abortion is about prematurely terminating a pregnancy (in medical parlance, what the lay person calls a "miscarriage" is also an "abortion"). Abortion, whether induced or spontaneous, always results in the death of a zygote/embryo/fetus (zef), because, scientifically, a zef is an obligate biological parasite and, as such, cannot live outside of its host's body.

Only a complete moron would argue that a human fetus isn't human. What else would it be? A chicken? A pig? A zombie? Though they are morphologically indistinguishable from the embryonic through the early fetal stages, human fetuses can only be gestated by women, pig fetuses by sows, chicken fetuses by hens, etc.

If you argue that a fetus is a seperate human being (which I realize you are completley closed off to, but it's a very real, scientific possibility. I can present just as much evidence that a fetus IS a human as you can that they aren't.) then it's not at ALL an issue of the woman's own body, but an issue of the child's rights...

I think what you and others are really driving at when arguing whether it's human is whether the human zygote/embryo/fetus (zef) is a person, which is debatable. Personhood is a philosophical question, the definitive answer to which neither theologians nor philosophers nor scientists have ever come to agreement. In any event, whether or not a zef is a person is irrelevant. A woman is indisputably a person. No born person has the right to commandeer the bodily resources of another person against that person's will, not even blood or bone marrow, the extraction of which impose far less of bodily damage and risk of death to the donor than pregnancy. Anti-abortionists propose granting unborn humans special rights that no born human (including an actual, born child) has to commandeer the body of another person against that person's will.
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From:pineapple1012
Date:February 4th, 2007 04:42 pm (UTC)

Re: another cent

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I'm going to do this in sections because its easier that way. . .

Of course, there isn't a single mainstream anti-abortion organization that proposes contraception and comprehensive sexuality education as a solution to the issue of abortion; in fact, every single last one of them either opposes or completely ignores contraception and comprehensive sexuality education

I am not, last time I checked, a mainstream "anti-abortion" organization, nor am I assosciated with one. I am continually frustrated by the "pro-life" movement for that very reason, in addition to the insistance on making something which should be simple science and law a religious issue.

I think what you and others are really driving at when arguing whether it's human is whether the human zygote/embryo/fetus (zef) is a person, which is debatable.

I was not arguing whether it's a HUMAN, but rather, if it is a human BEING. That's a very important word. Obviously, this is debatable, and, obviously, it is nearly impossible to come to a conclusion based on science of the personhood or being of a fetus. It is NOT, however, irrelavent. I'd rather err on the side of caution and assume it is than inadvertantly be committing murder. Also, it's a myth that abortion is safer than pregnancy, especially in this day and age. (I will qualify that: in most cases.) I find your description of the fetus comandeering the body of its mother against her will amusing, since you obviously don't believe the fetus is a functioning human being. How can a blob of tissue comandeer anything?
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From:bjsurvivor
Date:February 2nd, 2007 05:56 am (UTC)

Re: another cent

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If everyone who had an abortion was just a "dumb kid", a teenager terrified of an unplanned pregnancy, that would be much less sad than the idea that a woman who's well educated and theoretically intellegent would honestly want to destroy a person instead of letting someone else raise it, in order to save them convienience.
I'm not an idiot just because I do not agree with you. For one, I certainly don't "try to kill women like you" who feel they have the right to control their own bodies. Murder is murder is murder, so, that's just stupid. Also, it solves nothing.


Again, the personhood of a zef is not only questionable but irrelevant. A woman is indisputably a person (except, perhaps, to the pope and other devout Catholics and Christian fundamentalists) and, therefore, has every right to evict an unwanted intruder, whether person or not, from her body.

It is not only sad but utterly unconscionable to me and to many, many others that you and your ilk care not a whit for the suffering of actual, born children and adults, who, unlike zefs, possess fully developed nervous systems and are, thus, capable of experiencing the condition of suffering. Scientifically, zefs, because they do not possess developed nervous systems, are incapable of suffering. Our belief is that it is the height of irresponsibility to birth a child that is unwanted, unloved, or that one does not have the resources to properly care for and cherish. One abused or neglected or starved child is worth more than all of the billions of (spontaneously and induced) abortions that have ever occurred (40-60% of zygotes fail to implant - God, the ultimate abortionist!). Actual children and actual (born) people suffer all the time.

I, too, am not an idiot simply because I do not agree with you. Unlike you and your ilk, I am not trying to legally shove my beliefs down your throats and attempting to force to you have abortions you do not want, while you and your ilk are actively trying to force us to gestate pregnancies that we do not want or that we desperately do want but that we cannot properly care for or which are detrimenting our health or our very lives.

I was not always pro-choice (though I was never a proponent of forced gestation). It has never made sense to me to force unwilling people to birth unwanted children, nor to force them to birth wanted children that they are incapable of properly caring for. I used to honestly think that people who had abused their children should be forcibly sterilized and those who were pregnant with potential children that they were incapable of properly caring for should be forced to abort (including sterilizing men who mindlessly sired children). I have long since grown up, become far less egocentric than I was as a child, and have since realized that such actions would be egregious violations of human rights and individual moral agency, as much so as forced gestation would be.

Legally, abortion is not murder. Also, legally there are many degrees of murder - 1st degree, 2nd degree, manslaughter, negligent homicide, etc. There are also many degrees of justifiable homicide - self defense, accidental, in defense of someone else, etc. Then, of course, there is the death penalty and war, both of which are A-OK with the vast majority of anti-abortionists. "Prolifers" claim to base their argument on the "fundamental right to life of each and every human being," so to expect that they would be anti-war and anti-death penalty is not in the least unreasonable. [Notice that I am not expecting them to be vegans, opponents of antibiotics, or environmentalists] Even defining "pro-life" as only pertaining to zygotic/embryonic/fetal life would necessitate a strong stance against war for the sake of consistency. After all, modern warfare deliberately targets civilians in an effort to coerce enemy governments to accede. Bombs do not magically spare pregnant women, which clearly means that the unborn are deliberately annihilated along with the apparently inconsequential (to proponents of forced gestation) born people.
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From:pineapple1012
Date:February 4th, 2007 04:52 pm (UTC)

Re: another cent

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I'm amused you think that anyone with any sort of religious conviction doesn't believe a woman is a person. I'm not particularly religious, but some of the best people I know are. Try not to stereotype, you make yourself sound pretty silly, and I'm sure you're smarter than that.
I'm even MORE amused that you think you know my "ilk". . .what "ilk" is that? Females? Females under thirty? People with higher education? Humanities majors? (you didn't know any of these things about me until I just told you them.) I assume what you ACTUALLY mean are people who are opposed to abortion. That's a pretty darn broad spectrum, including men, women, religious, atheists, republicans, democrats, feminists, social conservatives, homosexuals, clergy, and intellectuals. I bet you if you made a ven diagram of people who are opposed to abortion and people who "give a whit for the suffering of actual, born children and adults" you'd find a good bit of overlap (also, if you included people who believe women are people.) I'm not gonna justify my social outlook to you, because I don't have to, but rest assured, I give a damn about the people who are already born.
Secondly, the death penalty and war are, in fact, HUGELY NOT acceptable to "Pro-lifers." Most pro-life organizations are across the board against anything like the death penalty, euthanasia, the targeting of innocent civilians, etc. Check your facts, thank you. I think you're thinking of far right republicans. Or just George Bush.
FYI George Bush is not the pro-life movement, nor is he a beacon of awesomeness for people who don't like abortion. Again, don't use such broad brushstrokes. I don't think everyone who is pro-choice goes out and impregnates hookers on the weekends in order to force them into clinics on mondays. geeeeze.
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From:bjsurvivor
Date:February 2nd, 2007 05:57 am (UTC)

Re: another cent

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Wanna arge it ideologically? We have three main rights: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. In that order. The woman's right to the pursuit of happiness does not eclipse the fetus' right to life.

These rights are listed in that order, but it is disingenuous of you to claim that they are listed in order of importance. Please watch the film Amistad, which is based on factual events; the taking of human life to achieve liberty has time and time again been ruled by many courts of law as justification to commit homicide against those who would violate one's personal liberty. Please also Google search McFall vs. Shimp. Throughout Western history, the right to control one's body is so important that it holds even after we are dead and no longer need our bodies and would, thus, not be at all inconvenienced by having our corpses used to preserve others' lives. Not even death row inmates may be forced to donate their tissues and organs to save the lives of others, though they have, of course, lost their right to life. It is deeply offensive and extraordinarily misogynistic that anti-abortionist's seek to relegate women's legal status to somewhere beneath that of corpses, death row inmates, and insensate flesh clots.

Also, I don't claim that the adoption/foster child system is perfect. It's far from. In fact, in a lot of ways, it's awful. But I don't really see that its worse than not giving a baby a chance to live.

It is not just "far from perfect", the adoption/foster child system is atrocious and not fit for any human being. We pro-choicers understand that you and your anti-abortion brethren believe that mere existence is the end-all and be-all, but we pro-choicers believe that human children both need and deserve far better than the mere existence and abject suffering you offer. We believe that quality of life is far more important than quantity of it.

I don't see how you can believe that the abuse, selling into sexual slavery, malnutrition, starvation, and abject suffering of actual children and women matters less than the perceived plight of insensate tissue clots. To me and to many, many others, it is far better to nip a potential life in the bud than to mindlessly birth new, actual human beings that will only know suffering, brutality, starvation, illness, and abject misery.

It baffles me you feel so strongly about letting someone else raise your child, but not about pulling them out of your womb before they have a chance to live.

It baffles me that you feel so strongly about clots of tissue that are incapable of feeling or forming opinions that you would place their perceived "needs" above those of persons who are capable of actually feeling and of forming opinions. It baffles me that anyone would be willing to absolute strangers and an uncertain, possibly brutal, future. Yes, there is a chance that babies who are adopted out to total strangers would have great lives, but the chance is just as great that their lives would be a living hell. I am not willing to take that chance with my flesh and blood. Couples who want to adopt should be content to adopt one of the existing tens of thousands the older, needy children that currently languish in the U.S. foster/dependent care system. Better yet, why don't you and your anti-abortion brethren spend your money on adopting and lavishing care upon them, rather than spending unconscionable billions trying to browbeat and force women into gestating unwanted children?
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From:bjsurvivor
Date:January 30th, 2007 05:00 pm (UTC)

Re: Just my twp cents

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Abortion is a fantastic thing. Hallelujah for the choice of safe, legal abortion!

I am never offended when someone calls me "pro-abortion" because that is what I am. Abortion has given so many women their lives back. It, along with contraception, has allowed them to control the size of their families and the spacing of their births. It has allowed them to delay childbearing until they are physically, emotionally, and financially stable. It has allowed them to complete their education and career goals. It has allowed them to remain childfree when that is their desire. It has allowed them to free themselves (and any children they may have) from abusive men. And on and on and on.

And the evidence that abortion is a good thing is on my side. The countries with the best pregnancy outcomes, the lowest infant mortality rates, the lowest maternal mortality rates, the highest literacy rates, the lowest rates of poverty (the vast majority of the poor in the developed and developing world are single mothers and their children), the lowest rates of teen pregnancy, and even the lowest rates of abortion are all countries that not only allow abortion but publicly fund them.
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